tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post5712082006898058969..comments2023-08-16T07:10:46.456-07:00Comments on The Quiet Protest: Thoughts on Preaching for Preachers and ListenersKen Piercehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03161121731160400592noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-72506196777824926692009-12-16T14:37:58.455-08:002009-12-16T14:37:58.455-08:00Ken,
again, you provoke my mind and heart. I kn...Ken, <br />again, you provoke my mind and heart. I know you study hard during the week and "take notes." So, HOW do you preach "without" them?? Are you using bullets, note cards, anything?? When I do go light on the notes, I at least have a 3x5 card with the Intro, list of points and Conclusion - especially if I have a good illustration. <br /><br />Lamkin<br /><br />ps - who said you were interesting? ;-PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-54843602065499031952009-12-09T05:11:39.447-08:002009-12-09T05:11:39.447-08:00Tim,
True enough. It becomes trickier the more h...Tim,<br /><br />True enough. It becomes trickier the more heterogeneous a congregation is. Right now, we are running the gamut from very affluent and educated to a few homeless --praise God for that. Given the makeup of Jackson, I am trusting God that we will become even more heterogeneous and even more bridge the traditional divides of deep South culture: not just race, but class, etc.Ken Piercehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03161121731160400592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-17400233217771999672009-12-09T04:01:10.265-08:002009-12-09T04:01:10.265-08:00Hi Ken --
I appreciate your response!
Another f...Hi Ken --<br /><br />I appreciate your response! <br /><br />Another factor for preaching is to keep in mind who the listeners are. Our congregation is still 75% single and mainly under the age of 30. <br /><br />Tim KellerAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-45847767833505367132009-12-08T22:14:52.579-08:002009-12-08T22:14:52.579-08:00Tim,
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't he...Tim,<br /><br />Thanks for the explanation. I didn't hear the sermon, and was (clumsily) agreeing with Andy's general point about being careful how we handle certain topics.<br /><br />I preached a sermon out of Judges once that needed to be fairly explicit. I sent an email to the congregation to explain to them and give fair warning, but also an encouragement to keep their kids in the service. I didn't say anything the kids couldn't understand or to violate their innocence. But, at the same time, church is a fine place (as a buttress to the family) for kids to start thinking through God's design, and what violations of the boundaries are.<br /><br />This is all, of course, a judgment call by pastor and session.Ken Piercehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03161121731160400592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-26130033124737592372009-12-08T20:38:41.270-08:002009-12-08T20:38:41.270-08:00Dear Ken and Andy:
I saw Andy say the same thing ...Dear Ken and Andy:<br /><br />I saw Andy say the same thing on the Warfield list about my first point in that sermon he heard in August. <br /><br /> I'm afraid Andy complete missed the purpose of the quote. It was in no way designed to appeal to anyone present--but to challenge them. It was not entertainment, and certainly it was not aimed at 'literati.' It was a stark denunciation of 'hooking up'--which the average young Manhattanite does with impunity. I was told by my members that many listeners present were convicted--and they needed to be. (Some people were offended by the denunciation--they were'nt 'entertained' at all.) Not only do virtually all non-Christians here have sex outside of marriage, many Christians who move here get sucked into it as well. The point of the sermon was about the Biblical concept of love within a covenant. There is no way you can preach that in Manhattan without challenging the licentious sexual behavior of the young population. <br /><br />By the way, the quote was from a Christian prof at UVA, Mark Edmundson, who wrote an article titled 'Dwelling In Possibilities' about the average college student today who does not want commitment to anything. In the article he exposes the emptiness of sex without commitment. <br /><br />I saw Andy express his concern with that part of the sermon back in the beginning of the fall, and I wanted to respectfully correct the misunderstanding. I hope this helps. <br /><br />Tim Keller<br /><br />PS - If Ken or Andy would like to see the quote itself, I'll send it alongAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-45142547642937127782009-12-08T11:24:50.492-08:002009-12-08T11:24:50.492-08:00Andy,
First, you would be surprised how little yo...Andy,<br /><br />First, you would be surprised how little you deviated, I think, if you went without notes. Don't you trust the SPirit man? Kidding, there with the overt hyper-pietism.<br /><br />Second, you are right about what you say. One can cross the line from frank to salacious fairly easily. De Witt could be frank (his sermon on homosexuality from Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the best sermons I have ever heard, I remember it even 11 years later) but was never salacious.<br /><br />Third, I love the sound of my own voice too!<br /><br />Fourth, (and I do this to highlight the tiresome nature of the 3 point type sermon), what bothers me a lot about guys our age and younger is the use of supposed epistemological humility, which often coincides with a whole heap of personal pride.<br /><br />We are not to be confident in ourselves, but we are certainly to be confident in the uniqueness of Christ, the infallibility and inerrancy of scripture, the resurrection, justification by faith. If we can be certain on those points, we ought to shut up and sit down.Ken Piercehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03161121731160400592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-84823663574875830132009-12-08T09:21:52.135-08:002009-12-08T09:21:52.135-08:00Hi Ken,
Excellent thoughts, there are however for...Hi Ken,<br /><br />Excellent thoughts, there are however forms of preaching that may be engaging, but to my mind are still wrong forms. Let me be overly frank as I describe them. The first is when the preacher is clearly preaching to entertain or titillate his hearers (or worse, himself.) This may grab the attention, but whom does it glorify and does it really edify? I too heard an erudite preacher from Manhattan preaching a while ago and he gave a long introduction clearly honed for the tastes of the intelligentsia with lots of mentions of literati, sex and hooking up on the campus. The congregation clearly liked it, but a couple of times my wife and I exchanged "should we take the kids out?" looks. The illustrations also had only a tenuous connection to the text and detracted from the exposition. <br /><br />Then there is preaching where the preacher is clearly in love with the sound of his own voice, and expects other to fall in love with it as well. Some of our hot young emerging soul patchers fall into that category. They are smart, sophisticated, witty, sarcastic, funny, engaging, and hopelessly in love with themselves. They captivate people from their generation, but their preaching is for time and not eternity. They are the beatnik poets of the theological world, and their material will sound just as dated in a few years while the preaching of Boice and Ferguson (which is framed for eternity) will still be fresh.<br /><br />Also notes are the only thing that keeps me from rambling on for two hours. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4543571234839860076.post-38474644011991403052009-12-08T06:00:29.432-08:002009-12-08T06:00:29.432-08:00Good stuff Ken! I am dying for someone to listen ...Good stuff Ken! I am dying for someone to listen to my sermons and give me some helpful critique. If you ever get a chance, would you do that for me?Bradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08073941325491280460noreply@blogger.com